Kerfluffle!

[sapote]

Maybe it's being, you know, a Southern white girl descended from a slave owners (feel free to defriend me!), but I've never understood what's so traumatizing about people accusing you of racism. When someone accuses me of being racist I usually go, "Huh. Really? Oops!" and then say "Let me think about that and get back to you! I'm quite sorry!" and try to be less racist next time. None of us can claim to be a) raised outside of society or b) raised in a perfect society, so really, can't you be expected to pick up some mental detritus now and then?

Is it racist of me to say that finding out you're being a little racist is not the end of the world? I don't even think it's that much of a reflection on your character as long as you consistently try to improve your level of treating-everyone-as-well-as-possible.

I'm not trying to open the whole can of worms again, incidentally, it's just that every time there's a discussion on fannish ethics, all those worms seem to get out anyway, and I decided to take it to my own lj instead of getting it all over someone else's.

Comments

[synecdochic]

Me, personally, I like hearing that kind of thing. Or, okay, not like it, it's painful and uncomfortable and horrible, but I appreciate hearing it, because if I'm doing or saying things that are exhibiting my racism (we are all racist), it means that I am hurting people. You know. People I like. People who are my friends. Or even, if not people who are my friends, than at least people who are other human beings. So, you know, I'd much rather know what I'm doing so I can immediately say "I am so sorry" and go away and fix whatever the fuck I'm doing. Or, if I can't fix it, at least make a sincere apology and work to not do it again.

Being a decent human being is hard, but, you know, it's kind of its own reward.

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if someone tells me I've hurt their feelings, I prefer to apologize, not accuse them of conspiring to ruin my day. But tell me: you are from the other end of the Mason-Dixon line, do you see a regional component in how people from the US acknowledge racism? Or do you think that it's more a personal thing, or a political affiliation thing?

My most eye-opening experience has been working with second-generation Hispanic organizations, I think - when I was really heavily involved with them, someone was always calling me on something, and while I felt quite bad I also enjoyed having to think hard about myself and my place in the world. (And then I got angry at other anglos a whole lot, which was cathartic but possibly not constructive?)

[synecdochic]

I think it's a personal thing, honestly. I grew up in a Very Very White suburb, and the PoC I interacted with in high school were mostly Asian (or Southeast Asian); my experience in school, for instance, was very White-culture-oriented and we didn't talk much about racism. At the same time, though, we did get an emphasis on diversity in history and literature, so ... I dunno what message we were supposed to take away from it. Most of my experience with my own personal invisible knapsack came from my family owning a business in the predominantly-Hispanic town one town over, and interacting with our customers there...

One thing I have noticed, in my various travels, enough to comment on it at least, is that in the northeast, people hate everyone equally; it's a generalized misanthropy that comes from too many people crammed into too small a space. In the South, man, if they hate or disapprove of you, they hate you, personally. Exhausting.

(And let us not talk about Nebraska.)

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, because if you're in in the South, you're in. If you've had time to build a reputation as Good People, assuming you're not in a community that's too ridiculously rigid, you're in forever, but otherwise, especially in Southern Appalachia, their grandparents have to have been on good terms with your grandparents. My mother has the curse of a Yankee family, and when we were really living in a cove no one ever let her forget it.

I haven't been north of the Mason-Dixon for more than a week since I was in elementary school, but other people tell me they find the constant misanthropy exhausting when they go there - because they keep trying to do the kind of thing that establishes you as Good People in the South, and keep getting rebuffed, and it would take a long time to learn not to do it. The South can also be so passive-aggressive - six feet of marshmallow with a steel wall behind it.

But then, NC is dominated by a couple of big university towns and a banking capitol full of Yankees, so I've probably had a lighter dose of it then I'd get in, say, Georgia.

[synecdochic]

Yeah. Whereas in the North, the way to establish as Good People is not the Southern idea of slow relationship-building (conversation, chitchat, etc, etc) but the Northern courtesy of "get in, get out, get out of my way". This was brought home to me when I was dating a Texan who'd moved up north for college: she would keep trying to chat up the counter person, with this looooong line of people behind her at the Dunkin Donuts or wherever, and every single one of them would be giving her the death glare ...

Whereas when I would go down to visit her family with her, and we'd go for lunch at the Whataburger (mmm, Whataburger), I'd be at the front of the line and I'd be trying to give my order and get the fuck on with it and the counter person would want to know alllll about our travel itinerary and I'd be like, hello, can we just get me my damn food already?

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

Hah, The counter person was SO OFFENDED OMG, I have had people do this to me and it's this moment of WHY ARE YOU SO RUDE? followed by being molasses-slow getting them their fries.

And then I get all sad when I go north and the dime-store clerk won't even tell me how his day was.

[rilestar.livejournal.com]

Well, I've never had the experience myself (of being labelled racist), but I've seen it happen alot around fandom and to me it often seems like 'racist' is the new 'witch' - being hit with the tag is like being cudgelled, and there's no comeback. It's like, the boundaries aren't specified, so people get the label for reasons not necessarily clear - or even correct. (If you offend someone it does not necessarily mean you were being offensive. Sometimes the problem just lies with the person who took offence.)

Maybe new terminology is needed, or perhaps it's down to poor communication. The term 'racist' is loaded. It has images of KKK and lynchings, etc, behind it. I think if you're going to address possibly unrecognised bias it might be better to use less loaded language in order to get the person to listen and take it on board, rather than just react.

*sighs, and throws hands in the air*

Hell, the fact that the human race still exists boggles me. It's so damn difficult (impossible?) to communicate with each other ... preconceived notions, biases, poor language skills, incorrect understanding of terminology - on both sides - incorrectly identifying your audience, personal hangups ... how the hell do we ever communicate?

Like - does this comment make any sense?

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

being hit with the tag is like being cudgelled, and there's no comeback.

See, that's the thing that confuses me. Being called a Nazi, sure, that's an unreasonable slur to which there is no comeback. But racism exists on a ginormous spectrum between trying to wipe out an entire race of people and quietly assuming that members of that race are slightly better at certain academic disciplines. I'm pretty sure that no one in fandom is trying to accuse each other of trying to wipe out whole ethnic groups? Or even being within a thousand historical steps of wiping out whole ethnic groups?

I find it interesting that the images racism called up for you sound so specifically American, too, given that - as a progressive Australian I'm sure you're aware - your country has done some ridiculous stuff based around racial prejudice as well. I do seriously wonder if being from the first place everyone thinks of when they hear the R word - I mean, I've met Klan members, they're really pathetic people - means that it's easy for me to be all "Yeah, quite probably I am, but I'm trying, please tell me if I can improve."

Thank you for responding to this when you're one of the people who this topic really upsets! Because people who agree with me, I already understand, but this is interesting!

[rilestar.livejournal.com]

See, I think a lot of the problem arises from people equating being labelled 'racist' with being labelled 'Nazi'. And to them, being labelled as such is an immense slap in the face. If you start from that understanding, you're more likely to dismiss the tag straight off as unwarranted, and less likely to analyse your behaviour to see whether there is a less obvious racial bias at work in your thinking.

I find it interesting that the images racism called up for you sound so specifically American

That was somewhat intentional - in that you're American, so I chose imagery that you would understand - and partly as a result of American culture being so pervasive. There are many Australians these days who know your culture and references better than they know our own. But hell, yeah - there is a hideous history of racism in Australia ... well, scrap the word 'history' - one only has to look at the ongoing government intervention in the Northern Territory to see that it's alive and well and as appalling as ever.

I've had many an argument with people where we've actually been arguing the same side, but misunderstandings about the meanings of terminology has obscured the fact. That's why I feel that we need to be mindful of the terms used, and how they're understood by the audience - especially if we want to encourage analysis and thought, as using language and approaches which shut down communication is counter-productive.

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

Which, that's the imprecise terminology, isn't it? Because racism is just one of the isms, it covers everything down to a dim, nervous feeling.

I've seen Rabbit Proof Fence! But even in my own country, we are the Racism Place (even though there are more Klan members in New Jersey than in North Carolina) - I go by the site of the Greensboro Lunch Sit-In every time I take the bus home. My favorite person in my church growing up was an old man who liked to tell stories about being the white guy on the trip to integrate barbeque pits outside of Chapel Hill and getting pissed on by the owner's wife. So both for reasons of stereotypes and reasons of lived history, those are references I identify with more...

What is a better word for "racism"? We can solve this right now!

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

oh, I thought of you when I learned this morning that my phone turns itself back on to act as an alarm clock, even if I have turned it off for the express purpose of not waking up at 6:30. Maybe your phone does this too and you don't know it yet!

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

being hit with the tag is like being cudgelled, and there's no comeback.

I would kinda debate that there's no comeback. There are plenty of comebacks. :/

I mean, the other half of this conversation is that it's not actually easy or fun for people who are being offended to speak up about it, which means (imo) that when someone *does* speak up about it, people should understand that they're not just doing it for fun. What happens after someone speaks up, in my experience (both in fandom and IRL) is that the person who *speaks up* is usually the one who gets dogpiled for being a meanie, a troublemaker, a reverse racist, obsessed with being a victim/overwhelmed with white liberal guilt, etc.

I can think of tons of things I've just let slip by because I know that even the most gentle comment, "Look, did you know that when you say XYZ, it's based on a stereotype that's really not true, and can be offensive? Did you really mean to do that?" would not actually be heard; what would be heard is "YOU ARE AN ACTIVE BIGOT AND YOU HATE XYZ PEOPLE."

(And to be honest, that's me relying on my white privilege; I *can* let these things slip by, because they don't hurt me *personally*-- and that's, yeah, kinda racist. So there's that.)

So I understand that it can *feel* like being cudgelled, but I think what sapote is saying is that it really shouldn't feel like being cudgelled, because it's *not* a Scarlet Letter-- when people point out this kind of thing, they're not saying 'You're stupid and evil,' they're saying 'Look, I'm sure you just picked this us somewhere along the way and didn't realize how hurtful it was, but it IS, so please stop doing it.'

People have said this before, but it's true: someone making a stupid mistake isn't what makes me think that person is racist; if they respond "no, I'm not being offensive, because I didn't *mean* to be, so no matter how much you say this hurts you, you're actually lying and just making stuff up to pick on me--" -- that's when a person gets a label in my head. Because it's one thing to be offensive without meaning to be; it's another thing to look another person in the face and say, "I don't care if this hurts you, I'm not going to stop doing it."

It's like, the boundaries aren't specified, so people get the label

But what sapote is saying, I think, is that "racist" isn't a label that you can *not* have. In a sense, everyone is racist, in that we have all been raised in society, brought up on tv and literature, learned a particular version of history, read these schoolbooks-- and there unfortunately wasn't a point anywhere in time where humanity just stopped, took society and culture completely apart, took out all the lingering racist/sexist/whatever bits, and put it back together again and said "ok, now we can go on, without any ingrained ick." It's still here with us.

[rilestar.livejournal.com]

So I understand that it can *feel* like being cudgelled, but I think what sapote is saying is that it really shouldn't feel like being cudgelled, because it's *not* a Scarlet Letter

See, I understand what Sapote is saying here because she has clarified her use of the word 'racist' - and it means something different to many other people. It reminds me of women who vehemently deny being a feminist - until you talk them through their beliefs, and show them that 'feminist' doen't have to equal 'man-hating lesbian with shaved head and piercings'. They are feminists, but their (mis)understanding of the term leads them to reject the tag.

Similarly, in my job - I work for a union - I have been treated as scum of the earth because of the preconceptions some people have (usually second-hand preconceptions, too, learned from family) about what unionism is all about (and god forbid they should let the facts get in the way of a firmly held belief!)

Anyway ... point is, actually - that kinda is the point. The terminology is tainted with imagery. If you want to encourage someone to critically analyse their behaviour, you'll either need to help them redefine the terminology, or find new wording altogether - wording that will move people onto the path of self-reflection, rather than raise their hackles and put them on the defensive.

And do I think this is *your* responsibility as someone who has been on the other end? No. I think it's great that you are willing to speak out - I get that it wouldn't be easy for you, I have seen the kind of response you're talking about. However, I think that receiving those responses should show you that the message isn't getting through the way you intend. A rethink of strategy is probably needed.

Not saying I have the answers, though. It's *way* easier to do this when you see the person in the flesh, for instance. Lots harder to do when you are using text, with no facial expressions, or body language to help show what you mean. In these circumstances sometimes I make a general observation of the issue, rather than to say: "You just did this." With a lot of people, this will draw them into a conversation on why they just did that, and hey - you've got them thinking.

I do wonder, though, whether these conversations may go down better in private (via email), rather than as a publicly viewable post? Taking out of the equation the sting of being shown to be less-than-perfect in front of others could help (we're such touchy creatures!) It also removes the 'dogpile' part, too.

And shit, I've just realised the time: I have an appointment to get to. I'll probably reread this later and think of a million ways I haven't expressed myself very well, but I hope you follow at least some of these rambling, Sunday morning thoughts!

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

It reminds me of women who vehemently deny being a feminist - until you talk them through their beliefs, and show them that 'feminist' doen't have to equal 'man-hating lesbian with shaved head and piercings'. They are feminists, but their (mis)understanding of the term leads them to reject the tag.

Right, *exactly*. And in my opinion, the solution there is not to abandon the word "feminist" because it's irretreivably tainted -- because even if we softened it up and tried not to sound so scary or threatening, and called ourselves, whatever, "equalists!" or "personhood-ists!" -- the problem is, the people who have issues with the *concepts* and *goals* of feminism would just mock and stereotype the "equalists" as viciously as they had tarred the "feminists." There'd be no point in giving up the word "feminist" in order to not scare people who have a wrong idea about feminists.

So, really, we *could* just stop saying "racism" because it's a big scary word and it scares people, but honestly I don't see that solving anything either. Even the gentlest, most soft-toned fannish meta, that doesn't even use the word "racism," that doesn't accuse individuals, that addresses broad trends and maybe says "unintentional offense" or "sorta problematic" -- even that can get a backlash. So, IMO, I really don't think the problem is in the *words* or even the tone, so much as the ingrained defensiveness of the people who just don't want to listen.

Obviously, there are good ways and bad ways to start the conversation. And there are conversations to have with beginners who have never had this talk before, and conversations to have with people who understand the basic concepts already and don't need all the terms explained again, etc. So I'm really not saying we should always charge into the conversation with "Hey! Since you're racist, I just thought I'd stop by and say--" and so on and so forth. Obviously being overly hostile and crazy and accusing doesn't help anything.

But I do think, a lot of the time, that "maybe we shouldn't use words or say things that scare people or make them angry" ends up becoming a distraction, because I don't think there *are* nice enough words or a sweet enough tone to pre-empt the backlash, if the person being criticised feels like lashing back or saying "how dare you call me racist, that's so hurtful that I'm now justified in treating you as badly as I possibly can!"

I do think the people being criticised have to take some responsibility for their own words and actions, and not just be like "Well, she said 'racist' and then I clearly wasn't responsible for my actions after that."

I do wonder, though, whether these conversations may go down better in private (via email), rather than as a publicly viewable post? Taking out of the equation the sting of being shown to be less-than-perfect in front of others could help (we're such touchy creatures!) It also removes the 'dogpile' part, too.

In the conversations I've seen, it often does start out that way-- like in the Harry Potter comm where they had a "miscegenation" challenge that covered interracial, interspecies and bestiality sex all under the same tag. People *did*, IIRC, take it to the mods through email asking that the tag be changed, and only brought the criticism public when the mods told them there was no problem and the tag wasn't going to be changed.

It can also be more useful to make a public post if you're concerned about a widespread trend... for instance, it might be more useful to make just one meta post saying "hey, what's with all the stories all of a sudden calling Girl a bimbo slut, while Boy gets pats on the back for the same behavior, isn't that kinda stupid?" as opposed to emailing authors, because the meta post might possibly cause people to stop and think before writing stories like that *in the future*, whereas just privately writing each author wouldn't do much in that sense.

[rilestar.livejournal.com]

And in my opinion, the solution there is not to abandon the word "feminist" because it's irretreivably tainted

I get your point, but I think there are times where it is helpful to let go of the terminology in order to make the point. Of course, there are always going to be people who react badly to any intimation that they are less than perfect - for those kinds of people there would be no point to changing the language as they're going to arc up anyway. (Can't always tell how people are going to react until you start the conversation, unfortunately.)

I do think the people being criticised have to take some responsibility for their own words and actions

You're absolutely right - no matter what's been said to them, there is no excuse for revenge attacks. Frank Herbert used to quote his wife: "Revenge is for children, and the emotionally retarded." I'm a big believer in personal responsibility.

In the conversations I've seen, it often does start out that way-- like in the Harry Potter comm where they had a "miscegenation" challenge that covered interracial, interspecies and bestiality sex all under the same tag. People *did*, IIRC, take it to the mods through email asking that the tag be changed, and only brought the criticism public when the mods told them there was no problem and the tag wasn't going to be changed.

Okay, in the first place - what the fucking fuck? Seriously? That really happened??? Oh oh oh, SO MANY KINDS OF WRONG! It's people/situations like this that have got me my reputation: "Yes, Riley, we know - Big Bomb. Kill all the stupid people." Argh, people suck.

It can also be more useful to make a public post if you're concerned about a widespread trend

Oh, I totally agree. I was more thinking along the lines where I've seen people post comments to an author's fic and people jump in on both sides. In those cases I would recommend the private email - if you're going to be commenting specifically to the author it might work better to not do it in front of others. But yes, a public meta post - by all means.

[nos4a2no9.livejournal.com]

This is a good question! I'm teaching a 14 week seminar on diversity this semester, and on the first day of class I'm going to get my (mostly white middle class Canadian college students) to write a list of their concerns/fears/anxieties about what discussion might be like in this course. I'm betting that the #1 concern is that they might say or do the wrong thing and be accused of being racist. I have a whole speech planned about how the only thing that encourages understanding and helps combat racism is the acknowledgment of it when it exists, either at the individual or group/institutional level.

So, yes. It's awful to hear. It's scary and it makes you feel uncomfortable, but it's productive, too. And, as I'm going to tell my students, it's what you do with that information that matters. So the major concern in the classroom shouldn't be "being identified as a racist/someone who has racist beliefs or preconceptions." It should be, "being identified as having racist beliefs/preconceptions but being unwilling to acknowledge it. Or so goes my theory, anyway.

[sapote3.livejournal.com]

I was pleased that it did not take me long on google to find this article (http://hugoboy.typepad.com/hugo_schwyzer/2006/05/ive_been_thinki.html) on male fear of "feminist anger". I do think they're related. I mean, is having someone be angry at you really the worst thing that will ever happen? Especially when it's someone who doesn't have that much power over you, really? I think the whole thing is so interesting.

If I want to avoid confronting the fact that I have learned a little bit of racism from society, the easiest way for me to do it is to avoid people from other racial groups. Offensive but true. I'm white and live in a cultural situation of pretty much de facto segregation, it's not all that hard to pull off. Acknowledging that there is racism in my background (tiny, nervewracking, liberal-family racism) has actually been the first step for me in being able to interact more easily with people who are different from me. This is something I have noticed. There's a lot that goes on under the heading of "not wanting to feel uncomfortable".

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

being identified as having racist beliefs/preconceptions but being unwilling to acknowledge it.

Yes, this.

I've seen so many, many people say this in fandom: if someone comes to you and says "look, X was questionable/problematic/whatever," they are giving you the benefit of the doubt. If they thought you were a crazy racist who was just going to be like "But I really do think X is true! You ARE all like that!" then they would just *avoid* you. So when someone comes to you like that, they clearly don't think you *are* an irretrievable racist.

What matters is what you do once the mistake is pointed out: whether you apologize and say "sorry, I'll try to to better," or whether you dig in your heels and say "you're just talking crazy talk, Crazy Person."

So, yes. It *is* totally uncomfortable, but it's probably going to happen at one point, especially if you're (like me, and like your students, probably) white and not really raised in a multicultural environment at all. But yeah, exactly, what matters is acknowledging that you're not actually perfect, you *can* make mistakes, and then you can apologize and try to do better.